Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

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Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby cadillac-elvis » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:09 pm

The facts concerning Elvis' first visit to the Memphis recording service have not been
consistant. But memories have a way of getting blurred and mixed up.
One of the most difficult thing our brains have trouble is, keeping things in chronological order.
We may remember several things but we don't often retain the proper order in which those events took place.
Keep this in mind when reading about anything in particular.
Elvis made 2, possibly 3 personal records for himself.
I have read everything there is on this subject, and the pieces never quite fit right.
But I found this little magazine that came out in the Summer of 1956 that puts some things
into context better than I have ever read before. I will show some of this article and mark the
points of interest as it pertains to the timing. I have been wanting to write about this for months, and then the Marion Speaks thread came about, along with the release of the Sun stuff, I figured this was the best timing to do this.

The magazine was written by Memphis reporter Robert Johnson by spending time and talking with
Elvis, his family, and his friends. Since it is from 1956, only a few years had gone by when the memories
were a little fresher, (note-not perfect). All of this subject is in chapter one of the magazine.

The story goes Sam was out, and Marion was in, so she discovered Elvis.
She recorded him (on tape) because she wanted Sam to hear this fresh new voice.
If Sam was there, she would have no reason to record him, so Marion's story rings true.
But, Sam had maintained he was there. Now carefully look at this article and the context of the
story we have always read.
Elvis was on his lunch hour that afternoon when he came in....ok, it's lunch time.
According to this article, Sam was at lunch as well....probably at the near by cafe.
But, what this article states is that Sam came back in time to see Elvis before he had left.
This supports Sam's story that he was there.
I had doubted Sam was there on that first visit, but now, I believe in context this all makes sense.
So, they both take notice.
And note that Elvis tells Robert Johnson, he went in to find out what his voice sounded like.
And also note the article states that Elvis made the second record for his mother.

I realize that Marion probably remembers Elvis wearing a crown trucking shirt,or driving the Crown Truck, but that memory was probably from the second acetate visit, not the first. I think Marion got the two visits mixed up
in her memories even as early as two years later. But, that is forgivable. And other than some chronological errors, I believe her memories are true.
It's interesting to know a sailor and his mother were there at the same time, and that Elvis made an impression on her, so much so, that she asks Marion, after bumping into her at a later date, if anything ever became of that boy with the sweet voice. Did this woman plant a seed to look Elvis up?

It is evident that Robert Johnson was able to listen to at least one of the early acetates at Elvis' home while
he was visited the family, and made note that Mrs. Presley was listening to her son on the record player.
It would seem that Mrs. Presley probably wore that record out from repeated listenings.
She must have loved her sons' singing.

This article could be the reason why there was the mix up on the title of the song Sam had found, by the unknown singer, that he wanted Elvis to try out. Within the same paragraph he refers to it as, "without you", and "without love". Oh well.

And lastly, Dewey Phillips playing of "That's all right", created a demand of orders totaling over 6000, before Sam had even pressed a single copy yet.
At that point Sam had to have known, he was on to something.
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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby TonyS » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:40 pm

I realize that Marion probably remembers Elvis wearing a crown trucking shirt,or driving the Crown Truck, but that memory was probably from the second acetate visit, not the first. I think Marion got the two visits mixed up

Elvis simply could not have been wearing a Crown shirt or driving a Crown truck for either of his first two private recordings as he wasn't working for Crown until well after the dates of them both. He was working for them at the time of 'That's All Right' though.
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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby cadillac-elvis » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:18 pm

Hi tonys, I should have checked that. I couldn't remember when Elvis started with crown.

Sam also stated in interviews that he often saw a Crown electric truck go up and down the street, and
he surmised it was Elvis working up the courage to come in.
That is still a mystery I suppose why both Marion and Sam insisted Elvis was employed with Crown in those very early days.
Come to think of it, if Elvis did make a 3rd acetate around May or June of 1954, and he did come in wearing his crown shirt, and driving the crown truck, and had his guitar with him, and it was his lunch hour once again, then once and for all, Marion and Sam's memories of Elvis being employed at Crown would fit the context. What do you think?
Tonys, do you believe the rumor of the 3rd personal record?

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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby TonyS » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:14 pm

cadillac-elvis wrote:Hi tonys, I should have checked that. I couldn't remember when Elvis started with crown.

Sam also stated in interviews that he often saw a Crown electric truck go up and down the street, and
he surmised it was Elvis working up the courage to come in.
That is still a mystery I suppose why both Marion and Sam insisted Elvis was employed with Crown in those very early days.
Come to think of it, if Elvis did make a 3rd acetate around May or June of 1954, and he did come in wearing his crown shirt, and driving the crown truck, and had his guitar with him, and it was his lunch hour once again, then once and for all, Marion and Sam's memories of Elvis being employed at Crown would fit the context. What do you think?
Tonys, do you believe the rumor of the 3rd personal record?

I can't say one way or the other, I guess my honest answer is that it is possible.
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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby Mister Moon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:34 pm

Interesting topic. Thanks all.

I wonder why the "Casual Love Affair" acetate has been omitted from all the main works in Presley bibliography in recent years.

Why, I wonder ?

Mu guess is Elvis did cut a third private acetate shortly before cutting Sun 209, and it would include "Casual Love Affair" and a recut of "I'll Never Stand In Your Way".


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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby cadillac-elvis » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:44 pm

Mr. moon.
That is partially my theory, but I have no reason to believe he would re-cut anything.

The problem with the Casual love affair title is that there is no previous version by anybody.

That third acetate could be anything from
Careless love to That's amore, to Cold cold icey fingers.

Theoretically anything that charted from 1948 to 1954 could be the song or songs Elvis would have chosen.

But I wonder why you would think he would re-cut something from January?

Slightly off topic, but.....If I had a time machine, I would gladly go back in time and send Sam a free box of reel tapes, so he wouldn't worry so much about the cost of them. He erased over a treasure trove of priceless recordings.
So depressing.

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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby Mister Moon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:00 pm

cadillac-elvis wrote:Mr. moon.
That is partially my theory, but I have no reason to believe he would re-cut anything.

The problem with the Casual love affair title is that there is no previous version by anybody.

That third acetate could be anything from
Careless love to That's amore, to Cold cold icey fingers.

Theoretically anything that charted from 1948 to 1954 could be the song or songs Elvis would have chosen.

But I wonder why you would think he would re-cut something from January?

Slightly off topic, but.....If I had a time machine, I would gladly go back in time and send Sam a free box of reel tapes, so he wouldn't worry so much about the cost of them. He erased over a treasure trove of priceless recordings.
So depressing.


I think so because I tend to believe what Robert Johnson wrote in the 1956 "Elvis Presley Speaks !" that you have just posted. I don't believe the theory that "Casual Love Affair" is a miswritten / misremembered title for another song.

There is another article from late 1956 which also mentions those two titles and the fact that the Presleys still owned the acetate at that point, explained by Gladys.

And the fact that no trace has been found for a song of that title is no definitive statement that it couldn't exist. It simply has not been found.

It wouldn't be out of character for Elvis to give a certain song, "Ill Never Stand In Your Way" in this case, another try, in order to improve what he might have judged a flawed performance - I know the second acetate has always sounded a bit more amateurish to me than the first one, even though it was cut later.

Well, just guessing anyway. We may never know for sure.

As for the reel tapes... do you know how much a 7-inch box of recording tape cost in 1954 ? Less than $5. :)


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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby cadillac-elvis » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:25 am

But Sam was using the premium tapes I assume and those would have been about $7.50.
So, what you are saying is....we have the 3rd acetate,but are missing the second one?

I am trying to figure out what is the most likely scenario.
Elvis re-cutting something or Elvis trying another popular tune from the day.
So, the likely scenario for me is that he cut something familiar.

So far, the 4 titles we do have can all be traced to charted records from
his early years. 4 out of 4.

If "Casual love affair" is the correct title, or something close to it, that means
he recorded something else.

I am starting to be convinced that writers just repeated the same mistake on this title over and over.

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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby mike edwards » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:43 am

cadillac-elvis wrote:.......we have the 3rd acetate,but are missing the second one?

That is my theory. I believe Elvis cut a second 'record' possibly at another recording service.
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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby TonyS » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:11 am

Mister Moon wrote:As for the reel tapes... do you know how much a 7-inch box of recording tape cost in 1954 ? Less than $5. :)

That five dollars might not seem expensive now, but it was back then. It's always easy in a dicussion to use that 'less than' line, but in real terms it's the same as approx $45 a reel today, not so cheap after all then.
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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby Mister Moon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:41 pm

TonyS wrote:
Mister Moon wrote:As for the reel tapes... do you know how much a 7-inch box of recording tape cost in 1954 ? Less than $5. :)

That five dollars might not seem expensive now, but it was back then. It's always easy in a dicussion to use that 'less than' line, but in real terms it's the same as approx $45 a reel today, not so cheap after all then.
image.jpeg


Well, just for comparison, in 1956 an LP cost $3.98, an EP $1.49, and a single $0.89. Less than $5 doesn't appear as a great fortune to me.

I could understand Sam re-using tapes that he felt would be no longer needed, but I'm afraid he was pretty much a stingy kinda guy, anyway.

There's a Jerry Lee Lewis session done early 1960 at the new Madison Avenue studio, where he had a 3-track recording machine, and he can be heard complaining to the musicians who are talking in between takes about "all this expensive tape running through the machine". Funnily, he wasn't using the 3-track for a stereo effect, but rather still recording monaural onto each one of the three tracks, which resulted in worse quality recordings as compared to what he was doing at 706 with the "old" gear.

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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby Mister Moon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:51 pm

cadillac-elvis wrote:But Sam was using the premium tapes I assume and those would have been about $7.50.
So, what you are saying is....we have the 3rd acetate,but are missing the second one?

I am trying to figure out what is the most likely scenario.
Elvis re-cutting something or Elvis trying another popular tune from the day.
So, the likely scenario for me is that he cut something familiar.

So far, the 4 titles we do have can all be traced to charted records from
his early years. 4 out of 4.

If "Casual love affair" is the correct title, or something close to it, that means
he recorded something else.

I am starting to be convinced that writers just repeated the same mistake on this title over and over.


No, as I said above, the third acetate would be the "lost" one, made shortly before he did Sun 209.

It seems like the discovery of the second acetate has completely erased the "Casual Love Affair" matter forever. Like I also said, there's not even a mention of it in any of the recent Elvis works, and we are told (by Keith Flynn's website, for example) that the song title was a consequence of somebody misinterpreting the lyrics of "It Wouldn't Be The Same Without You" - not to mention the totally wrong notion that "Casual Love (Affair)" was first mentioned by Jerry Hopkins... in the 70s.


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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby cadillac-elvis » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:18 pm

Mister Moon wrote:
cadillac-elvis wrote:But Sam was using the premium tapes I assume and those would have been about $7.50.
So, what you are saying is....we have the 3rd acetate,but are missing the second one?

I am trying to figure out what is the most likely scenario.
Elvis re-cutting something or Elvis trying another popular tune from the day.
So, the likely scenario for me is that he cut something familiar.

So far, the 4 titles we do have can all be traced to charted records from
his early years. 4 out of 4.

If "Casual love affair" is the correct title, or something close to it, that means
he recorded something else.

I am starting to be convinced that writers just repeated the same mistake on this title over and over.


No, as I said above, the third acetate would be the "lost" one, made shortly before he did Sun 209.

It seems like the discovery of the second acetate has completely erased the "Casual Love Affair" matter forever. Like I also said, there's not even a mention of it in any of the recent Elvis works, and we are told (by Keith Flynn's website, for example) that the song title was a consequence of somebody misinterpreting the lyrics of "It Wouldn't Be The Same Without You" - not to mention the totally wrong notion that "Casual Love (Affair)" was first mentioned by Jerry Hopkins... in the 70s.


I never did believe in the theory that the title was part of the lyrics to "It wouldn't be the same without you".
I think the reason the song is not mentioned in any current works is the same reason Uncle Penn, or Cold cold icey fingers isn't. Ernst will not include those in his writings if he hasn't come across any evidence.
He doesn't want to print rumors.
And Casual love affair had to be first mentioned in this very article I posted.
And I would bet it's also mentioned in fan club mags in the 60's as well, so Jerry hopkins wasn't the first to mention it.

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Re: Elvis--Marion--And Sam--The start of it all.

Postby Mister Moon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:02 pm

cadillac-elvis wrote:
Mister Moon wrote:
cadillac-elvis wrote:But Sam was using the premium tapes I assume and those would have been about $7.50.
So, what you are saying is....we have the 3rd acetate,but are missing the second one?

I am trying to figure out what is the most likely scenario.
Elvis re-cutting something or Elvis trying another popular tune from the day.
So, the likely scenario for me is that he cut something familiar.

So far, the 4 titles we do have can all be traced to charted records from
his early years. 4 out of 4.

If "Casual love affair" is the correct title, or something close to it, that means
he recorded something else.

I am starting to be convinced that writers just repeated the same mistake on this title over and over.


No, as I said above, the third acetate would be the "lost" one, made shortly before he did Sun 209.

It seems like the discovery of the second acetate has completely erased the "Casual Love Affair" matter forever. Like I also said, there's not even a mention of it in any of the recent Elvis works, and we are told (by Keith Flynn's website, for example) that the song title was a consequence of somebody misinterpreting the lyrics of "It Wouldn't Be The Same Without You" - not to mention the totally wrong notion that "Casual Love (Affair)" was first mentioned by Jerry Hopkins... in the 70s.


I never did believe in the theory that the title was part of the lyrics to "It wouldn't be the same without you".
I think the reason the song is not mentioned in any current works is the same reason Uncle Penn, or Cold cold icey fingers isn't. Ernst will not include those in his writings if he hasn't come across any evidence.
He doesn't want to print rumors.

And Casual love affair had to be first mentioned in this very article I posted.
And I would bet it's also mentioned in fan club mags in the 60's as well, so Jerry hopkins wasn't the first to mention it.


I can understand Ernst not wanting to prnt rumors, such as "Uncle Pen" and others that have been mentioned over the years without any real evidence behind them, but "Casual Love Affair" is not, or should not be, in this category because it was mentioned in at least two 1956 publications, as we have seen in this thread.

I really hope someday we will be able to solve this mystery, but it makes me a bit sad to see that possibility discarded when there is some evidence supporting it.


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